Please address pay-to-win and multi-accounting abuses

  • badidol  Hera and all other admins, moderators, and game ops.


    I am merely one person. 1 player in a browser game.


    I have played ikariam since nearly the beginning. I remember seeing the notice about it coming up and created an account on the en server way back when. I remember back when the game was so busy they would lock worlds from being able to create new accounts. I remember when the us servers were created and there was some confusion because internet search engines at the time didn't make the difference clear that alpha en was different than alpha us.


    And all the changes since then. adding things removing things restoring things changing things, and on and on,


    I understand that a video game may feel that it needs to change and evolve, and that is going to involve trial and error. Some things succeed better than others and some are "good enough", and some are fails.


    I have no doubt from comments I have seen from you all that you are aware of the issues concerning multi accounting, as well as general banks.


    I just wanted to let you know, in case you were not aware - long time players are leaving. it's not the merge. It's this.


    Most people can accept a touch of "pay to win" in an online game, after all, the company needs to make money to survive. But usually these things are restricted to cosmetic things, passive things, restorative things, low end development things.


    That's long no longer been the case.


    not only can one use ambrosia to buy military, which itself is a problem, but with the black market and multi accounting (allowed and disallowed), this really has become a pay to win game.


    I mentioned in another thread that the ability to purchase military (a fully developed object) is similar to the ability to buy a fully levelled up building, like a level 32 academy. From a game design perspective, there really is no difference.


    And further, since military actively interacts with other players, and actively can remove/destroy objects created by other players (their fully developed troops) this is actually more of an issue.


    There was a thread that the black market needs to go away, and that's true. But that's only part of this problem. The ability to buy troops with ambrosia needs to go away as well. And so does the ability to buy gold with ambrosia.


    Now if you all feel that "pay to win" is ok, then please feel free to let us know that, so that players can make the discerning life choices as they feel appropriate.


    But I honestly don't think pay-to-win was the intention.


    So I say this to you because the only way this will change is if YOU take action. I can't do anything. Only you can pass these concerns to game forge. Only you can make the difference whether this game is pay to win or not.


    Is this the only issue? Of course not. Is it the biggest one? Yes. It's actually worse than multi-accounting, and that's saying something, because the current abuses of multi-accounting are very bad.


    I believe you care about these things, or you would not volunteer your own time in support of Ikariam.


    So I am asking please. Please resolve this.


    Thank you for your time.

  • Hmm, this has been this way already for years (black market and army packages in the shop) and you just noticed it?


    I believe that badidol has stated multiple times that multi accounts are gonna stay, no matter if he or us do not like it. And if they were allowed during server merge, there is not a single reason to prohibit them now, when the players have moved the accounts and developed the islands.

  • I've read you multiple times Draxo, and all the time, instead of try to understand how the player feel about the current state of the game, u make fun of it. That's just sad to read.


    They were allowed during the merge and we all know why. Most of the players had multiple account with ambro inside, and guess what. If u force to waste the money of your customers maybe they will get mad, and surely they wont spend more money.

    Now, i can agree with you that not all the multi are bad intentioned. But most of them are just GenBank, GoldBank, fake-maker, farm for pirates point. If u dont think all of this is bad, well keep going like this. And wait the time when only 3 player will play this game. With 50 account each. Super funny in my opinion.

    Seems like this game is forced to shut down or planned to do so, but that is just my own thought.


    All the think that went wrong during the merge was GF fault, not players fault. Just a memorandum.


    And as a wise guy said, if you have to reply with some sarcastic word, just dont reply.

  • And as a wise guy said, if you have to reply with some sarcastic word, just dont reply.

    Well, if you take the true as a sarcasm - that's really not my fault. But yeah, all these years I hear only whining without any real solution which would work for the most of players. The same in this thread. You just want to fulfill your personal wishes by removing multi accounts, black market and premium packages without a wider understanding about how it will affect the majority of players (you know, the boards are read only by max 10% of players, so your complaints do no mean that all players think the same) and how it will affect the incomes of company (this is a business and believe me - such a large company wouldn't exist for so long time without some smarter people leading it).


    Multi accounts are bad, piracy is bad, black market is bad, premium things are bad - well, then make your own perfect charity game, pay all the expenses from your pocket and be the best game developer in the world. I can bet that even then the same players will find something else to complain. And again - it's no sarcasm, just an opinion after working for Gameforge for more than 10+ years and also by owning my own games with players who always are against something.

  • I don't think the multi-accounts are the source of the problem. I believe the black market is the source of the problem here. Is this really what Gameforge intended? Is this the path they want the game to continue down? These are current General scores, not total scores. It changes the dynamics of the game when someone can buy millions of general score's worth of troops/ships






    Multi accounts can never be eliminated. The legal ones could be, but we all know the reality that illegal multis will always be around. So we have to live with the consequences of multis and find ways to deal with them. This game was never intended to be a pay to win game. But it is starting to become that way.


    Adjusting something that is imbalanced is something that the company should be interested in.

    viZb6W5.png


    Turmoil's in the air

    Hold your breath be deadly calm

    Make a final prayer

    Don't forget what you have done

  • And as a wise guy said, if you have to reply with some sarcastic word, just dont reply.

    Well, if you take the true as a sarcasm - that's really not my fault. But yeah, all these years I hear only whining without any real solution which would work for the most of players. The same in this thread. You just want to fulfill your personal wishes by removing multi accounts, black market and premium packages without a wider understanding about how it will affect the majority of players (you know, the boards are read only by max 10% of players, so your complaints do no mean that all players think the same) and how it will affect the incomes of company (this is a business and believe me - such a large company wouldn't exist for so long time without some smarter people leading it).


    Multi accounts are bad, piracy is bad, black market is bad, premium things are bad - well, then make your own perfect charity game, pay all the expenses from your pocket and be the best game developer in the world. I can bet that even then the same players will find something else to complain. And again - it's no sarcasm, just an opinion after working for Gameforge for more than 10+ years and also by owning my own games with players who always are against something.

    I should just re-quote my previous statement to answer that.


    But. We cant find solution for GF work, i dont get paid and, most important, I m not listened to. I played this game for a long time, then leave it cause piracy. Was a mafia world, and all the player know that. But that's not the point. The point is, we try-ied to ask GF a ton of stuff, shorter round, more ship, new features. What we got? Nothing. Which is fine, but dont start the "U just cry and dont propose solution".

    Now I will give u some solutions.

    Black Market - make a "max gen" buyable. 10% of your total score. Or maybe more. 20% idk, but surely some rand guy cant buy 100+kgen and then flash the polis.

    Multi- since its legal to have one, just bring back the "invite friend" thing. At least i dont have to spend money in order to get the multi close to my town.

    -Piracy- there's plenty of solution that i read in this forum. Like, force a CD on player, in order to stop the farm or at least slow them. Only 1 Structure available per account. And so, somebody already wrote all of this, just go and read.

    Pay-to-win-troops - again, give a cap. I dont think this is the real problem, cause Spartan's are expensive. But i know there's some player with a quick-credit card-draw. Just give a cap, maybe weekly, your call.

    And at the end, i agree with you. Most of the player wont read the forum, for plenty of reason. Surely it not confirm your word's, neither mine. But at least we are the 10% who talk about the problems.

    And, yes. Player will always complain about something, the thing is, how many and who? We've been through something man. Forced to move our (10k in my case) account in a 1mln min points server. Then get impossible to log in. Then get plenty of minor bug. Then.. a X number of inactive, start to spawn back and not disappear (it was noticed right away but no one did anything) . Blocking new town spot, making impossible to grow. I'm currently sitting on 4 town, 114k, wall 20, %resource reduction 30, port 20, %resource up 10 to 15, muni 18, hide 24 to 26, mag 15 to 4x14, palace and res 4 ready to 5, temple, ecc. And i cant get a 2nd wine town. (sorry for the OT)


    All of that to make u feel like us. Hawk is right, there s a lot of problem on end-game phase, and likewise on early phase rn. So understand that before "tell the truth" in your special own way. The player complaining now are the same player that loved and love the game, or else we will just change it with Travian o smt

  • And as a wise guy said, if you have to reply with some sarcastic word, just dont reply.

    Well, if you take the true as a sarcasm - that's really not my fault. But yeah, all these years I hear only whining without any real solution which would work for the most of players. The same in this thread. You just want to fulfill your personal wishes by removing multi accounts, black market and premium packages without a wider understanding about how it will affect the majority of players (you know, the boards are read only by max 10% of players, so your complaints do no mean that all players think the same) and how it will affect the incomes of company (this is a business and believe me - such a large company wouldn't exist for so long time without some smarter people leading it).


    Multi accounts are bad, piracy is bad, black market is bad, premium things are bad - well, then make your own perfect charity game, pay all the expenses from your pocket and be the best game developer in the world. I can bet that even then the same players will find something else to complain. And again - it's no sarcasm, just an opinion after working for Gameforge for more than 10+ years and also by owning my own games with players who always are against something.


    Draxo.


    Hi,


    Thanks for commenting. Though I am somewhat surprised at the tone of your comments. I suppose I'll just chalk it up to you being used to throwing attitude at fanboys/fangirls.


    If you look at what I wrote, I expressly said I understand that this is a business, and that the company of course will want/need to make money.


    But that can be done in many ways.


    and good, smart companies do not do that in such a way as to alienate their playerbase.


    And before you tell me how awesome game forge is doing keeping their playerbase. I'll merely point to the server merges.


    Games do not merge servers if they have a growing clientbase. This is not an upward arc of success.


    My post was to ask (to plead actually) that some action be taken.


    The game's broken, and long has been broken. In many ways.


    But the people is why long time players stick around.


    And Ikariam is losing people.


    Not the short-time thrill-seeking fanboy/fangirl.


    But those deep-pocketed players who have been playing this over a decade and now have jobs and families


    There is money to be made. But not if GF doesn't clean things up.


    At what point does someone just shrug their shoulders and say "This is just a browser game" and walk away?


    You want to have servers that have black markets? Fine. make them separate specialty servers like the gold pillaging ones, with their own specific rules. But just like gold pillaging - which was removed from all servers for a very long time - the game processes are currently being abused.


    This ball is quite simply in GF's court.


    But don't wait too long deciding what to do. Or there may be few left to see it.

  • The point is, we try-ied to ask GF a ton of stuff, shorter round, more ship, new features.

    Not quite true. Initially the round was 15 mins long, then was decreased to 15 mins. Initially there was only 180 possible ships, then 40 Phoenician ships were added, friend list bonus and ever a government form bonus ships. Also we got a new building. So - they use to listen to us sometimes, and add something new if there are resources.

  • The point is, we try-ied to ask GF a ton of stuff, shorter round, more ship, new features.

    Not quite true. Initially the round was 15 mins long, then was decreased to 15 mins. Initially there was only 180 possible ships, then 40 Phoenician ships were added, friend list bonus and ever a government form bonus ships. Also we got a new building. So - they use to listen to us sometimes, and add something new if there are resources.


    Draxo


    "...So - they use to listen to us sometimes..."


    used to


    sometimes


    Definitely inspiring hope for the future.


    I proposed an easy-to-implement solution - remove several items from the ambrosia store. remove a single building (black market) which will require also removing a tab in the tradepost, and likely some attached interaction coding calls.


    But as I said, if the goal is pay-to-win, say so. I may be willing to occasionally chase windmills, but I won't beat my head against a wall.


    Decide what kind of game you want to be and whether you think that model is profitable or sustainable


    Oh and if you're bored, go search online and see how well the world-at-large likes the pay-to-win model.


    Is this truly what you want for this game?

  • The point is, we try-ied to ask GF a ton of stuff, shorter round, more ship, new features.

    Not quite true. Initially the round was 15 mins long, then was decreased to 15 mins. Initially there was only 180 possible ships, then 40 Phoenician ships were added, friend list bonus and ever a government form bonus ships. Also we got a new building. So - they use to listen to us sometimes, and add something new if there are resources.

    That's why i wrote "try", 15 min still too much, i know its a game changer thing but that's the point. The Phoenicians? Meme imo, a ton of dolla for 40 ships (20k). But just my opinion. Friend list were removed and we both know why. Government? +2 (1k), meme again. And again just my opinion. Dont take it personally.

    The new building is the only good thing (Archive) it's hella of expensive and not early game friendly, but it's something.

    Now, i wont write any longer cause that's OT, but i'll close with this.

    In my "gaming career" I've never spend too much money, i only spend it when the game is good. And by good i mean constant update in order to not kill the game by staticism. I know Ika is not the tipe of "constant changes" but 1 every 3-5 years.. i guess you got the point.

    Again sorry for OT and seya.

  • There is really nothing I could reply, that hasn't been said about this a few dozen times already.



    As said before...none of all of this is new and to be honest, it would've probably been quicker to just go back and copy paste what I've already written or even just copy paste links to old posts saying exactly the same.


    The tl;dr version basically is:

    Yes, we're still working on the game.

    No, I can't currently tell you any spoilers.

    Yes, we do want to improve the Ikariam experience.

    No, we're not going to "fix the App", we're still out of mobile development as far as that is concerned.

    No, Piracy and Black Market are not going to be "simply removed" from the game. There's not even a point for me to suggest that.

    Yes, the shop will continue to have items for sale that can gain you an advantage.

    Yes, for the forseeable future it will remain a matter of "either invest time or money". As is the case in pretty much any game that isn't pay to play.



    Sorry for the really long text, but I am not planning on reacting to the same thing again any time soon, so I thought we'd cover it all in one go. So now there's a relatively fresh and new post, saying all the things again we've already addressed several times over the past few years. I am sorry, if many of this doesn't please or satisfy you. It is, however, the best I can give you: honesty and a direct approach, as always. All I can ask you, is to bear with me. As someone working on Ikariam for just shy of 13 years now, I am aware of how demanding and heartbreaking this can be. Ikariam never was "instant gratification", many of you who are with us for longer than just a few months know this all too well. All I can ask is for you to bear with me and continue walking this road with me. I'm going to. And I'd be happy if I'd see you next to me.

    pcmIK.jpg

    Am Anfang wurde das Universum erschaffen.

    Das machte viele Leute sehr wütend und wurde allenthalben als Schritt in die falsche Richtung angesehen.

  • You are telling that you guys are working on the game, would you mind to give us a little more information?

    I mean we are all kinda like waiting for a long time to see anyhting happen, except the big merge like a second time for me

    The're is not really anything changed for the last 4 years. I'm not asking to reveal all things you have in process.

    But I know a lot of players are losing their patience. And if you want them to keep playing we all need some kind a intell

    to keep us interested. Otherwise I guess even this great merge was a waste of time.


    I hope you guys really want to listen to the community, because the're is a reason that some players play this game for

    a really long time. The harder part is to keep the new players interested to keep playing like some old veterans. And the only way

    to do that is to improve the game experience that this game is lacking at the moment.


    Can I also aks why the app will not be fixed? I really don't understand that, because we are like living in a digital world

    whe're we are all connected with a phone. That you have problems with development does not mean that you can't invest

    in some infrastructure to actually improve things.


    An other question is, you talk about that some of the original writers stopped working. Might it not be a suggestion to rebuild

    Ikariam from scratch with it's coding. Not an easy task, but it might work for the longer term.


    Also I wanna thank the team for keeping the spirit to give all you have to make this game work. I understand that some things

    are not easy. So I hope you guys keep the world of Ikariam alive.


    greetings from an old veteran

    Embio

  • You are telling that you guys are working on the game, would you mind to give us a little more information?

    I'd kindly ask you to refer to my previous post.



    Can I also aks why the app will not be fixed?

    We pulled out of mobile development years ago. Also, for Android it requires a lot of effort just to keep the app working through the different OS versions. iOS is a bit more steady there and requires less effort. For now: the Ikariam App will not see any further development, as it hasn't for the last 3-4 years already. Unfortunately that remains its status. It has, as a matter of fact, already been pulled of the Google Play Store and was only being re-added due to a misunderstanding. It should be removed again somewhat soon-ish.


    An other question is, you talk about that some of the original writers stopped working. Might it not be a suggestion to rebuild

    Ikariam from scratch with it's coding. Not an easy task, but it might work for the longer term.

    Oftentimes you'll hear developers say stuff like "I'd rather write it all again from scratch." indeed. However, that rarely applies to projects of this complexity and size and would easily take many months and that's with a full complement of 5-6 devs solely committed to Ikariam and the project of rewriting it again from scratch. That's simply not feasible. You'd then rather just code a new project altogether and rebrand it. Completely redoing a project of that size is a massive undertaking.

    pcmIK.jpg

    Am Anfang wurde das Universum erschaffen.

    Das machte viele Leute sehr wütend und wurde allenthalben als Schritt in die falsche Richtung angesehen.

  • badidol


    Thank you for taking the time to share this thoughtful response.


    I appreciate and respect the position you are in, in this. And I appreciate what you were able to share with us


    I suppose in response, I could parse your message line-by line, explaining that much of what you said, I did and do understand already, but I realise that this is a forum environment, and though I may be the original poster, your message was clearly intended for a broader audience.


    To merely note a few things:


    I understand what you were trying to convey overall about game monetisation, but as I mentioned in a previous post, there are many ways in which to do that.


    When you remove the cosmetic appearance of it all, Ikariam is mostly (though not entirrely) merely just a game of timers and time management. Due to mass duplicative presentation, resource management, while present, is less of a thing. Resources in this game are a cost/barter item. x number of resources to level a building, or research points to get the next research, etc.


    Timers are used for the interim wait times for the execution of actions (send a ship, send a spy, etc.), and for the creation of "objects" (buildings, troops, ships)


    I never proposed painting with a broad brush and removing the ambrosia store. As I said, there are ways that players can accept - and even like - ways in which ambrosia can affect the game. the key being using ambrosia to somewhat speed up timers to reduce "how long".


    I'm not thrilled with, but can accept, being able to purchase chunks of the 5 ingredient resources (marble, etc) - though they are gained, again, through waiting on a timer, they also could be gained through pillaging and as pirate rewards etc. And further, these are still only "ingredients" not finished products.


    Where we start to have a major issue is when ambrosia grants a finished product.


    Hence my point about being able to buy a fully levelled building. Once you cross that line, you invalidate the time invested in the game. You remove that intrinsic "value" that players place upon their invested time in the game, and by so doing, reduce their sense of "ownership" in the game. Once you cross that line, players leave the game. It really is that simple.


    Well, being able to buy troops as fully created objects crosses that line.


    And gold is more than simply a single resource. Unlike research points, which are focused to one particular things, or even the resources which are mostly focused on creating or developing objects, gold is omnipresent and used nearly everywhere in the game.


    Gold is already abused in the tradepost. This is not merely my opinion. Game Forge - while it had more developer resources attached to this game - consistently continued to look at that and modified that several times.


    So all the tradepost gold abuses are present in the black market PLUS you are not buying an ingredient, but a fully created object.


    This is further exacerbated due to allowed (and disallowed) multi-accounting, which allows even far greater abuses.


    (I don't think I need to explain the various abuses to you at this point, I think you are well aware.)


    So when I look at the many many issues facing Ikariam, and am looking at what needs fixing the most, it's pretty obvious. Setting aside addressing actual cheating (which I'm trying to leave outside this particular discussion), I would estimate that the biggest issues that players face are:


    1.) the buying of created objects with gold or resources in the black market - gold is worse than resources, as it only requires a single tradeship to transport gold, while buying troops with the ingredient resources can take many ships.


    2.) the buying of objects, gold, and ingredient resources (marble etc) - in that order - with ambrosia.


    3.) massive abuse of multi-accounting in many different ways. And not just general banks. I won't bother to try to begin to list even some of them here.


    4.) the abuse of gold in the tradepost and the black market.


    I don't include piracy because - while I don't disagree that it can be misused, and also that it's killing the game because it's a more "passive" way to take "something" from other players (you take "capture points" rather than actual game resources) and so it has reduced the interest in this game by certain types of player. So Ikariam has become a much "softer" game thereby, in many ways. Even so, it doesn't come anywhere close to the abused issues above.


    Ok, so at this point, what's to be done?


    I think you laid it out very clearly in your post.


    You care about these things, but GF does not.


    There are 22 other games out there, and apparently their existence prevents the allocation of development resources to ikariam to address these things.


    And the selling of such things with ambrosia, as a short term money grab, is more important than long term development of the game.


    As for future development, I appreciate that you cannot say what may be coming or when - no sense in self-setting up such a strawman.


    But that could be as minor as more cosmetic looks to the 4 advisors in the main window, to adding a new building. Nothing to suggest that the actual multiple issues with the game will be resolved.


    I don't place this on you, I recognise the position you are likely in, but honestly, the various cheaters must have cheered after reading your message.


    I don't cheat. I see no point in playing a game if one needs to cheat, and that's regardless of whether I'm playing by others' games' rules, house rules, games which I may have designed or produced, or whatever.


    So I am finding all of this disheartening.


    In any case, I do appreciate your time and the candor you were able to provide.


    I will say with some honesty, there truly have been times I have enjoyed my time in Ikariam


    Thanks again.


    Skyhawk.

    Edited once, last by skyhawk377 ().

  • Must comment on this one,

    All the time i see people complain over stuff general banks and so on, yes it may be a problem and can be abused and according to people it being abused. BUT according to most of the post people being accused on it for cheating. You all want it to be removed without as Draxo have said see the greater picture. Imagine be new to the game and start on for example UK/US Alpha and have nothing and being taken care of a bigger player who recommend barb farming for example. Attack with spears and hops cost alot, but if he could use SG's that being sold to him by the bigger player he would be able to grow faster, also sell expensive troops for dismiss for res and so on is also possible for quick growth!


    What you offer here is stuff that can hurt the people to new players, also should trade station also be removed since that can be used to feed gold, then people can build their army up and then have people finance them with gold to maintain all that GS?


    I know there is people that abuse stuff in the game, there have always been and will always be!

    Either you learn to live with it or you move on, like in real life and you have disturbing neighbours you either live with it or move to another place.

  • A bigger player can send resources to smaller and he can make an army accordingly :) But yes, you are mostly right. A lot of people suggested removing the black market, but a recent thread appeared that offers to simply limit its usage. Currently, the most broken thing about it is how you can buy an unlimited fleet with it. Just send one ship (make it carry 100 resources so it would be faster, oh, such a "skill") and bam, you can buy an unlimited amount of ships with your gold. Easily replenishing your fleet instantly without committing any time or resources (1 ship vs 180+ if you want to buy a lot of troops) is what breaks the game. It can simply be tuned down to be quite similar to buying land troops, which would discourage or limit GS banks, because they a) they would need to spend more time outside of V-mode and lose more gold b) a user couldn't instantly buy 400k - 1kk GS which takes a month or so to kill :)

    Piracy used to give 12x protected resources for 1st place. Now it's tuned down to 2.75. 1st place player literally could get 9.6 mills worth of ress every 21 days. That was unbalanced, therefore changed. The same could be done about the black market.

  • Theres been lots of good suggestions on how to fix the gen and gold bank problem by simply not allowing people who come out of v.mode to trade for 12-24 hours. Anyone who thinks there isnt a problem can maybe explain how you fight a group of people with 800,00 and up to 1.4 million gens.It take a week to drop those million gens and then voila! he has another million gens..

  • Right now and for the last couple of weeks the Iranians of PGA alliance on beta server in ENT world are scandalously using millions of general scores to attack other alliances. They have 40 million gold today and 100 million tomorrow, 50,000 generals score today and 1 million tomorrow.


    Quite often suggestions have been made to stop these abuses, and it would be quite easy to do.so,

    Yet the game authorities steadfastly refuse to listen to us and just say "the game rules allow it so live with it".


    Well, I have a suggestion to all the players who believe these abuses should stop... *removing and suggesting you read this post before you continue on with your suggestion* Please address pay-to-win and multi-accounting abuses


    Maybe this post will be removed from this board (we live in a world where censorship is the new normal) but this message can be spread through the alliance chats on different worlds.


    [mod='Hera']Please take some time to read the forum rules before posting, as well as reading other posts in this thread as your answer is amongst it...and No post not removed...just edited. [/mod]


  • Yup,they dont realize since the merge beta server is now a graveyard with more dropping out every day.

    I been playing this game since it started and it was NEVER intended to be played like this.

    I could post some cr's but no one would believe the numbers of troops and ships we fight non stop 24/7 as they not only have dozens of multis but they have account sitters who take over when they sleep. A go could easily see this by monitoring them but complaints fall on deaf ears. They literally killed beta server with the last merge. Most members of my law alliance have been sieged and locked down for close to 7 weeks now.The other alliances around us are experienceing the same thing. Their goal is the total destruction of beta after their leader had multiple accounts banned for illegal multis.


    [mod='Hera']Edited Quote[/mod]

  • I understand pay to win, it takes money to run these servers and keep them well I would say updated but no updates in the last decade... But the multi-accounting they ignore is what is killing the game. These general banks are the result of multi-account and of course made possible by the black market but most of these gen banks are run by individual players and fed by their alts via separate VPN connections which is against the rules of the game but ignore by several players and moderators/game support. This is the main reason I don't/am not willing to spend money on ambrosia. I've been playing for several years well over a decade and am in a position where I could spend a decent amount on ambrosia but it always comes down to why. Why spend the money I work hard for when I just get pushed around by players who cheat and are encouraged to cheat by the rules of the game not being enforced.


    Has the game now come to where we should all start cheating? Is this what gameforge wants?