New battle dynamics (advanced level)

    I came back after learning that General banks are handled in a much more balanced way.

    In meantime the new version came up and now the battle dynamics are a bit different.

    Considering the new system for troop and ship upgrades, and change to the unit HP/dmg/armor etc - how did this change the tactics (on a more advanced lvl)?

    I have read @AT Barbarossa's legendary post, and have played this game (on and off) for some time now, but now there are 3 perspectives to consider:

    1. Fighting with maxed out upgrades
    2. Upgrade priority
    3. Unit viability


    Maybe the post is too philosophical, but I like these types of discussions. Skip if you don't want to engage your brain more than "I just send everything I've got and hope for the best".
    The reason I'm curios is because before you had some options to fight bigger players and still win with clever tactics: manage battlefield sizes, exploit lack of certain unit types, handle damage with certain units for specific cases etc. Now it seems that bigger players always have the edge until the max upgrades are reached.


    I'm curious to see how these aspects have changed with the new version:
    Have losses changed on maxed out vs maxed out armies?
    Are cheaper units now go-to option until reaching max upgrade before investing in "stronger" units?
    Does it make sense to still have use cases for each unit (i.e. ram vs cata vs mort)?
    Given that SG are much more expensive to upgrade in comparison to hops, does it make sense to give any thought to SG before hops are maxed out? Or does the price reflect the gains making it viable to focus on SG straight away (assuming proper SG rotations)?

    I know that the update is still kind of new, but there should be some data available for these "advanced" considerations that were noticeable for players that were maxed out in previous versions. Tactics like mixing SG and hops, using catapults to soak balloon damage while still offering some good damage to the opponent, to handle damage control vs full max damage formations and such considerations.

    I understand that now upgrade levels play huge role on battlefield, and I am not sure how the upgrade prices scale in regard to total points correlation, so maxed out armies might be reserved for players with 10s or 100s of millions of points (or maybe not - idk). Also there is a huge difference between players that started investing in upgrades while having millions of points vs players that started from 0.

    Is it more important to invest into hops (or maybe even spears), or maybe balloons, gyros even? Or it gets even more complex so that you need to complement units that you plan on upgrading - like don't upgrade morts until you have upgraded gyros etc.? Maybe swords are now more important than ever in that regard (don't upgrade anything until you are done with swords)?

    Or should you jut go one by one, keeping them all around the same lvl?

    Please share your thoughts and experiences with advanced considerations, maybe some examples if available.

    y0sfztq5hoi41.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=67c85f899d5e5fea8ba95c8a4fee2179e1054040 " Yet I may come at you, and all your accursed house; and you shall be broken on my will, though you all were made of steel. "

    From what I've seen so far, the "meta" is:


    On navy, balloon armor and speedboat attack are the most important upgrades.

    On land, it differs, but mostly I've seen people going for balanced gyro upgrades, with a little bit of armor on the balloons.


    And that's because waving is still the best fighting tactic for large-scale wars, allowing you to destroy the most generals in the shortest amount of time.

    Of course, people also upgrade swordsmen (evenly), hoplites (evenly, with a bit more armor), carabineers (attack only), mortars, and rams. The same applies on the navy side.

    But if you look at how they spent their crystal (on navy; land is a different story), you'll find that about 75% of it went toward the balloon/speedboat upgrades I mentioned, and 25% went toward all the other ship upgrades. Hence, you can tell how important those two upgrades alone are.

    Thanks for the info! Much appreciated!


    I'm a bit surprised since the % in damage/armor increase is the lowest for balloons and artillery (same for navy), and navy in general has lesser benefit factor given the amount of health/dmg/armor. In that regard, swords have the highest % increase per level of upgrade, followed by gyros. (this is all just pure math perspective, obviously actual usefulness and utilization can differ - hence this discussion)

    At first it seamed as if the upgrades had more impact, but then I realized that lower numbers had more impact since the armor had much bigger role in those cases (proportion issue in general)... This update just prolonged the time to reach max lvl upgrades and made it much more costly. So it would seem that on max lvl nothing actually changed really.

    What is the average total score where players seem to reach all upgrades at max lvl? It was around .5 mil before (I don't actually remember, but couple 100k give or take is not much of a difference), how did this change?


    And, if I understood correctly, the max lvl is 20?

    y0sfztq5hoi41.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=67c85f899d5e5fea8ba95c8a4fee2179e1054040 " Yet I may come at you, and all your accursed house; and you shall be broken on my will, though you all were made of steel. "
    Quote from Morgoth_Bauglir

    And, if I understood correctly, the max lvl is 20?

    It should be infinite.

    My higher up is slingers attack up at level 33


    Quote from -MjolniR-

    But if you look at how they spent their crystal (on navy; land is a different story), you'll find that about 75% of it went toward the balloon/speedboat upgrades I mentioned, and 25% went toward all the other ship upgrades.

    It also because balloons and paddles are used in fakes

    Could you explain what "fakes" means? I'm not from the English servers/community, so I'm not familiar with all the terms.

    And how do the slingers work for you instead of carabineers? Is there a "tipping point" in upgrades where you start seeing the slingers work better than carabineers?

    Quote from -MjolniR-

    Could you explain what "fakes" means?

    1 ram, 30 paddle and 6 ( or 5 before V14) balloons vs a full formations in order to completely destroy opponent back while he is parking offline. This way you can destroy all the opponent formation except for steam rams and rams. ( yes you can also destroy second line and fire ships after third line is gone). If your up are much better so you lose no balloons basically you can destroy opponent formation at quite 0 general cost.


    Quote from -MjolniR-

    And how do the slingers work for you instead of carabineers?

    They do NOT work. Just i have stopped to play competitive about 2 years ago and i just wasted my crystal and tried against barbarians.

    Thank you for the replies.


    Infinite scaling does impose high priority for crystal. It would seem that around ~10 levels of difference it starts making impact on the battlefield, and ~20 levels for the sea (for most units, some benefit more, some a bit less, so give or take a couple of levels before seeing difference). So there is a buffer zone there, as long as there is cycling of units. In the long run though, it seems that effects amplify as units spend more and more rounds in battle. So technically waving is now important more than ever.


    This is good news and bad news. Bad news for bigger score difference encounters, good news is that tactics are now crucial, and this gives more room for new tactics and situational awareness. It brings asymmetry to the battles, and well coordinated groups that cooperate in development will have much higher ceiling of success compared to relying on brute force.

    y0sfztq5hoi41.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=67c85f899d5e5fea8ba95c8a4fee2179e1054040 " Yet I may come at you, and all your accursed house; and you shall be broken on my will, though you all were made of steel. "
    Quote from AT Barbarossa
    Quote from -MjolniR-

    Could you explain what "fakes" means?

    1 ram, 30 paddle and 6 ( or 5 before V14) balloons vs a full formations in order to completely destroy opponent back while he is parking offline. This way you can destroy all the opponent formation except for steam rams and rams. ( yes you can also destroy second line and fire ships after third line is gone). If your up are much better so you lose no balloons basically you can destroy opponent formation at quite 0 general cost.


    Quote from -MjolniR-

    And how do the slingers work for you instead of carabineers?

    They do NOT work. Just i have stopped to play competitive about 2 years ago and i just wasted my crystal and tried against barbarians.

    Ohh, that’s what I meant when I said “waving” in my first comment. Yes, that’s still the way to go.


    Quote from Morgoth_Bauglir

    Thank you for the replies.


    Infinite scaling does impose high priority for crystal. It would seem that around ~10 levels of difference it starts making impact on the battlefield, and ~20 levels for the sea (for most units, some benefit more, some a bit less, so give or take a couple of levels before seeing difference). So there is a buffer zone there, as long as there is cycling of units. In the long run though, it seems that effects amplify as units spend more and more rounds in battle. So technically waving is now important more than ever.


    This is good news and bad news. Bad news for bigger score difference encounters, good news is that tactics are now crucial, and this gives more room for new tactics and situational awareness. It brings asymmetry to the battles, and well coordinated groups that cooperate in development will have much higher ceiling of success compared to relying on brute force.

    From what I’ve seen, the “gap” you need in order to have an advantage is about 3-4 upgrades. Let’s say speed boats have level 15 attack against balloons with level 18–19 defense-the balloons will take 0-1 casualties per square. (Not precise data, but those are approximately the numbers.)

    Quote from -MjolniR-

    From what I’ve seen, the “gap” you need in order to have an advantage is about 3-4 upgrades. Let’s say speed boats have level 15 attack against balloons with level 18–19 defense-the balloons will take 0-1 casualties per square. (Not precise data, but those are approximately the numbers.)

    That is quite insightful. And it does make difference. Maybe not noticeable in short attacks, but after 10 rounds of such a difference it totals to 10 balloons after 5-10 rounds - which is considerable.



    On another note, faking is not the same as waving:

    What he described is attacking full formations with incomplete formation in order to:
    either determine presence of force - probing (if spying is not possible but you still need some insight)

    or to grind down back lines before launching a full scale attack in which you'd then wave your troops for damage control

    In case of probing, based on how much of the army has scattered, you can determine if there is a full formation, or not. I can't remember the exact numbers, but just by looking at what has scattered you can have at least some insight.

    If you want to grind it down before going in for full attack, you need bigger force in order to compensate for that scattering. So by eliminating back lines, you reduce enemy damage output thus making a huge difference in final score once you launch full attack. It is important for the enemy to be offline though (best without Hefe on - which is rare if you are at that level of development - and still the scattered numbers might indicate if Hefe is on or not).

    y0sfztq5hoi41.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=67c85f899d5e5fea8ba95c8a4fee2179e1054040 " Yet I may come at you, and all your accursed house; and you shall be broken on my will, though you all were made of steel. "

    The true difference isn’t only the balloons. If you’re not losing balloons, you’re also destroying more rocket ships, which means you’re taking less damage to your front line. And if you’re destroying more of the enemy’s balloons, you’re losing fewer rockets and dealing more damage to the enemy’s front line.

    Yeah, that too.


    Unlike flanks that (in full formation) don't get breached, back lines are under constant pressure. At first it seamed that flanks would benefit the most from upgrades (most noticeable % increase), but usually flanks fall around the end of the battle, while balloons keep constant pressure on the back line, and 1 balloon does make a difference - directly (back lines) and indirectly (front line).


    I just need to find a way to consult @AT Barbarossa about the formations and some specific tactics, most of the other stuff is much clearer now. We already had discussions about different formations, but I need to make a document so that I don't have to keep all that info in my head. I'll check his document again and try to apply new values to it, but there is more to it than just simple theory.


    This insight was very helpful, thnx.

    y0sfztq5hoi41.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=67c85f899d5e5fea8ba95c8a4fee2179e1054040 " Yet I may come at you, and all your accursed house; and you shall be broken on my will, though you all were made of steel. "

    Are we sure "Tutorial and Guide" is the proper section for this discussion?


    Anyway

    Quote from Morgoth_Bauglir

    good news is that tactics are now crucial, and this gives more room for new tactics and situational awareness. It brings asymmetry to the battles, and well coordinated groups that cooperate in development will have much higher ceiling of success compared to relying on brute force.

    For what i have have seen it is exactly the opposite. If you find an opponent with more up -> immediate retreat.

    Only a very few people in alliance of hundreds of players fight, others just farm or sell troops. And this is obvious since most of accounts produce less than highest scorer so in the same time can bring less up.

    Wave of 5 balloons in navy is no more necessary. Waves in bombs are no more necessary since if your gyros are well upped they kill 30 bombs per round ( see post 889 of Infinite horizon 2 thread or other treads.)

    I am not sure, but i think due to their high up cost, giants have become unplayable respect to hoplites ( also carabineer attack up should not affect hoplites but should affect giants).

    Imao only fire ships are still worth waving.

    The meta ( at least in old server) is composed of 3 things: fakes, multi-impacts and endless battles. And if you find an opponent that have more up than you simply avoid to fight.


    If you are interested in math analysis you should ask to Le stagiaire who have solved the calculation of killed units for every up levels in paddle vs balloons and in rams vs rams scenarios

    First things first, you need **6 carriers** in the Navy. for bombing.
    And if you face an opponent like me, with the ultimate submarines in defence, while your carriers have only **14 damage**, good luck with that. 😂


    Also, good luck if your carriers have low defence upgrades while my paddle boats are **7 levels higher**.


    The only thing that could save you would be my rockets. But if you find them, they’re basically one-shot anyway.


    But guess what… again… **which ships attack first? The paddle boats.** 😏


    If I kill your carriers first, you’ll have less damage output against me, which means **fewer casualties for me**, even when the rocket ships come into play.


    A lot of things have changed in the game now. **This guide isn’t accurate anymore.**

    Damn...


    So basically bigger accounts always have an advantage with virtually no way of playing around it...


    And with each set of replies, the conclusion shifts in completely opposite direction...


    It's a bit sad really... The creative part of the game has gone down the drain... I understand that big accounts felt a bit stagnant after some time, but this just makes the gap even bigger...


    And you are right @AT Barbarossa, this isn't for tutorials section. I was hoping there would be more to it than just simply "no tactics, just upgrades". SG are out of the picture, which made the game interesting, and since everyone is going for the air/anti air - it all boils down to raw numbers or what's just simply easier... The only thing left is maybe fire ships to provide some fun to the game (but that is basically another resource drain with huge risk if caught off guard), while land warfare has been reduced to Travian with extra steps (time waste).


    So joining older servers is nothing more than adding fresh meat to meat grinder of bigger players.


    Either way, thanks @Salah Ad-Din, your comment basically kind of brought me back to my initial assumption, with some additional clarifications.

    I got excited when I learned that general banks were handled, but this is just trading one bad thing for another.


    There is no influx of new players (not returning ones, but those who never played the game before) as long as the game caters only to the old players. And then they cry about not having enough players to buy ambro...

    And there are ways to bring in new and fresh players (several options, not just 1 or 2), it's just that the GF is stuck in some outdated mentality surpassed almost 2 decades ago. They don't even know what potential this game has, who the targeted audience might be, and how to monetize non paying players... Textbook example of greed turned into shrinking comfort zone suffocating the progress and development.

    y0sfztq5hoi41.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=67c85f899d5e5fea8ba95c8a4fee2179e1054040 " Yet I may come at you, and all your accursed house; and you shall be broken on my will, though you all were made of steel. "

    It all depends on how you want to play and which server you’re playing on.


    Do you want to be a competitive fighter? Well, you need upgrades, and some people here have them at level 20+


    The good news that even with level 16 upgrades**, you’re still better than **90% of the server


    Do you want to be Bob the Builder and not become a farm for other players? Sure! Keep your loot in one city, have level 55 walls, 30k troops there, plus 3 Colossus, and no one will ever come to farm you. 😂


    So it’s not all black and white. There are alternatives.

    Well I want to fight. I never liked building that much, mainly just to support my army. Never liked hoarding resources, and pillaging was always funneled towards immediate construction needs... Most of the time the only thing you can pillage from me is wine and gold.


    And I get what you are saying, it's just that the skill component is completely being avoided here...


    3 examples:
    Magnus is the best chess player in the world, and he wins not because he has higher rating which gives him 3 extra pawns, but because he wins with exact same pieces his opponent has. Skill difference.

    In LOL you have several aspects: rune choices, wave management, macro awareness, micro management and positioning, champion knowledge etc. And even if you are countered - it just means you won't have an easy time, not a guaranteed defeat.

    In WOW PVP I can 1v2 or even 1v3 if the opponent is not skilled enough - anticipate, adjust talents, CC, burst timing, defensive cooldowns etc. Even before when gear had a huge role, if you were skilled and "mid" geared you could defeat an average best in slot player (not easily, but still doable).


    In Ikariam it just boils down into raw investment, with ambro being a cheat code. You can't buy extra pawns, or a rook or a queen in a chess game. You can't buy stats or items with money in LOL - only cosmetics, in actual game you need to farm out the gold in order to buy items (caped at 6 items), not feed opponent, be mindful of objectives, and you just need one player to rely on even if all the rest are feeding. In WOW even if you buy boosts for items, or gold, or whatever, there is still a cap beyond which you can't get any further, and the game actually starts once you reach max character lvl and average gear. Those games favor skill. Ikariam also had that component to it, but as time went by - it got reduced and grinded down to just simply raw math - like Travian. General and gold banks were the epitome of that system.


    I don't mind losing to a skilled player. And not only that, I can learn from that defeat. Before this update I was fighting stronger players and wining - and I'm not boasting about my skills, the opponents were not that good. Some were good, but not unmanageable. It's just that bad players can now just simply be bad AND undefeatable. It just doesn't make sense...

    y0sfztq5hoi41.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=67c85f899d5e5fea8ba95c8a4fee2179e1054040 " Yet I may come at you, and all your accursed house; and you shall be broken on my will, though you all were made of steel. "

    Yes, it all comes down to how much crystal you invested in upgrades (and also the correct upgrades), and how much money you're willing to spend on buying general banks through Discord servers in order to destroy those generals on yourself while using Hades - and upgrade your army even further to higher levels.

    I'd say levels 22–30 are the high end of upgrades. And those levels are ALWAYS obtained through this method of investing money and using Hades.

    P2W? Yes.


    Will it change? No.


    Is this the saddest state the game has ever been in? IMO, yes.

    At this point the only creative component of the game is "How can I exploit it the most" ^^


    And to be honest, I admire the creativity, it's amusing :D

    y0sfztq5hoi41.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=67c85f899d5e5fea8ba95c8a4fee2179e1054040 " Yet I may come at you, and all your accursed house; and you shall be broken on my will, though you all were made of steel. "
    Quote from -MjolniR-

    I'd say levels 22–30 are the high end of upgrades. And those levels are ALWAYS obtained through this method of investing money and using Hades.

    If you already have a big account before v14 , levels 22-30 are reachable in several years also for f2p players, just farm and convert resources via the premium trader.

    The high end of upgrades should be 30-40 according to the units, when you start to have limitation due to warehouse levels (you cannot start up that requires more crystal than you can stock in a city)

    Quote from AT Barbarossa
    Quote from -MjolniR-

    I'd say levels 22–30 are the high end of upgrades. And those levels are ALWAYS obtained through this method of investing money and using Hades.

    If you already have a big account before v14 , levels 22-30 are reachable in several years also for f2p players, just farm and convert resources via the premium trader.

    The high end of upgrades should be 30-40 according to the units, when you start to have limitation due to warehouse levels (you cannot start up that requires more crystal than you can stock in a city)

    I would somewhat agree, although v14 came out on 5/25, which means F2P players didn’t have enough time to upgrade to levels 22-25 (on speed boats and balloons, at least-and I’m not even talking about levels 25-30...).

    And the units that cap at 40 are probably the cheaper ones, like hops and swords. Navy is much more expensive.

    Speed boats and balloons at level 30 are the highest I’ve seen. I’ve also seen ram ships at level 30 (on both attack and defense) and steam rams at around level 22.