Give a better overview of upgrades (general + Ikariam PLUS)

    In recent versions (13.0 and 14.0), Ikariam received some impactful updates regarding workshop military upgrades.


    Whether you love or hate the upgrade (I think this is irrelevant, please refrain from "I love it" or "I hate it"!), I believe this has created some new unique challenges:

    • Enforcement: It is hard for the alliance leadership team to know who has been working on their upgrades unless they ask (and trust, but they could be lying), spy all members OR force the members to fight with other people. This makes enforcing a minimum baseline across the alliance extremely difficult, especially should that alliance scale.
    • Self-reporting: It is not easy to communicate how high the upgrades of your own units are. You would have to go to your own workshop, see what the next level is, write it all down for each and every unit and extract one level from the one displayed in-game. This is annoying if you have to ask everyone in the alliance to do the same, especially because they can and will change over time as people invest more in their units.
    • Coordination: Prior to the upgrades-update, it was already tricky to coordinate which individual members should join what fight. But due to the unique battle system of Ikariam (where some unit slots prefer the WEAK units and some prefer the STRONG units as explained in the in-game help section) it is a dreaded nightmare for a general to coordinate who should join what fight. After all, the upgrades impacts who can fight (placement of units) and who will be less effective (less damage/more losses).

    What is my suggestion? In an ideal world, I would LOVE to see the following two features:

    1. The general gets an full table of all the upgrades as part of their military overviews (improves enforcement and coordination)
    2. You can see a full overview of your own upgrades in the Ikariam Plus bonus overviews. (improves self-reporting)

    I'm not commenting on your suggestion, however I would like to mention one thing, I think, in warfare mechanics of this game, the definition "WEAK" and "STRONG" units in your example is not relevant.

    like if you have hoplites and steam giants, in ground battles, hoplites come before steam giants, no matter which upgrade has the hoplite, or fire ships before steam rams in sea battles no matter how high upgraded fire ships are.

    Whatever combination of units/ships are engaged in a battle, there is predefined order that forces them to take turn in fighting, it is up to participant to decide what kind of units to send in or pull out of the battlefield.

    Quote from LG2nd

    I'm not commenting on your suggestion, however I would like to mention one thing, I think, in warfare mechanics of this game, the definition "WEAK" and "STRONG" units in your example is not relevant.

    like if you have hoplites and steam giants, in ground battles, hoplites come before steam giants, no matter which upgrade has the hoplite, or fire ships before steam rams in sea battles no matter how high upgraded fire ships are.

    Whatever combination of units/ships are engaged in a battle, there is predefined order that forces them to take turn in fighting, it is up to participant to decide what kind of units to send in or pull out of the battlefield.

    I have no post-13.0.0-battle experience, but I recall that Hephaistos would determine who the strong/weak units had before this update. So I'm assuming this to be the same for unit upgrades.


    Of course, upgrading your units might not fundamentally change the groups (fire ships go before steam rams for instance). That's not the argument here. I'm talking about the scenario where multiple players bring in the same army, and the upgrades would decide who will get placed first.

    What I'm trying to say, that humane intervention is almost impossible to determine whose units attack and whose units stay in reserve. it is predefined by the game and the "general" can only withdraw them from the battlefield. (I know the owner can wave his units as he wishes, but the "general" can not)

    That said, how we can determine, the "Weak" and "Strong" between units? The one having 10 damage and 5 armor upgrade and the other one having 5 damage and 10 armor upgrade?

    because it's the hit points that determine wicht is the weak or strong. Not damage, not armour. Hit points can't be upgraded.

    Time to change this

    This is a well-thought-out and detailed suggestion that highlights very real issues, especially for larger alliances. One of Ikariam’s biggest strengths is its tactical depth, but that’s also what can make it incredibly frustrating if the game doesn’t provide enough tools for planning and coordination.

    Quote from Sirmium💕

    "(...) addig nem nyitom az ujjaim, amíg nem látok bele dolgokba."

    Quote from DIAS

    because it's the hit points that determine wicht is the weak or strong. Not damage, not armour. Hit points can't be upgraded.

    Time to change this

    Well, if your argument is correct then there is no need for any upgrades at all.

    Let me explain, hit point is a basic value of a unit by which it is distinguished, adding armor upgrade makes him absorbing or resisting more strikes, while damage upgrades gives him the ability to strike or paunch harder.

    In theory version 14, "Infinite upgrades" will make spearman so advanced that he may match swordsmen on the flanks and even hoplites in the frontline.

    I'm still not commenting to initial suggestion that IM_Mike made in his first post, since if I'm not mistaken, is about giving the ability for "alliance general" to move player's units on his own will.

    Quote from LG2nd

    I'm still not commenting to initial suggestion that IM_Mike made in his first post, since if I'm not mistaken, is about giving the ability for "alliance general" to move player's units on his own will.

    I didn't say the general should be able to move other player's units. I was suggesting that the general would get an overview of all the upgrades within the alliance so they could optimize coordination with regards to upgrades.


    I hear people claim that HP is the only determining factor that decides who gets the battling units on the battle fields (as per strong / weak units). That might be true if multiple placements are possible (say hoplites versus steams). But I recall that 100% of the time the balloons ("weakest go first") with no hephaistos would always be placed first, so there is more to it than just HP in my experience.

    Quote from LG2nd

    In theory version 14, "Infinite upgrades" will make spearman so advanced that he may match swordsmen on the flanks and even hoplites in the frontline.

    In theory yes, but in practical use it's still questionable whether it makes sense to go for them at all (in actual combat), because you'd need a lot of Upgrades until they'd even be cost-efficient again (so it depends on the cost-formulas).


    And whether you want to bet on that, especially when it's very likely that there will be more changes to the military aspect of the game... not sure.

    Quote from IM_Mike
    Quote from LG2nd

    I'm still not commenting to initial suggestion that IM_Mike made in his first post, since if I'm not mistaken, is about giving the ability for "alliance general" to move player's units on his own will.

    I didn't say the general should be able to move other player's units. I was suggesting that the general would get an overview of all the upgrades within the alliance so they could optimize coordination with regards to upgrades.


    I hear people claim that HP is the only determining factor that decides who gets the battling units on the battle fields (as per strong / weak units). That might be true if multiple placements are possible (say hoplites versus steams). But I recall that 100% of the time the balloons ("weakest go first") with no hephaistos would always be placed first, so there is more to it than just HP in my experience.

    OK Mike , here are my thoughts about suggested your 2 points.

    1: General's detailed table about alliance military units.

    In this on-line game it is very hard to force people doing things that they don't want or cannot afford, for many reasons, one of the most important reason is member's real life issues. Even if a general has full chart of his alliance members military units, he won’t be able ordering and forcing players of his choice with "Stronger" units to fight a battle. Not to mention, that we still did not define which unit is strong and which one is weak, (please see my previous posts) if we are lacking to conclude this, how to expect from alliance general to make such conclusion. I say let us not give to a general something that he won’t be able to use...

    Yes, forge adds armor and strike points which is advantageous against non-forge units and the game chooses those, having higher points, at least this was in v13. but now, in v14, with non-forge but higher upgraded units may easily surpass that.

    In my opinion, Ikariam's saddest post in alliance leadership hierarchy, is Generals post. He may get lucky finding players ready to sacrifice their real-life time, participating into time consuming battles.

    Even so, as "General" he cannot do much, why? Because this game is not about alliance battles and alliance attacks against others, individual players choose their playing time and playing style, but whatever they do, the game is balanced in a way that they must not make great harm and damage to others. Alliances also can choose their playing style but the game does not allow to dominate the server... it dies in very short time, can you imagine entire server consisting of one alliance? You think they will enjoy playing on that sever as one and only one alliance? I think not.

    2: Seeing full overview of own military upgrades in premium account. May I say that we already can see that in the workshop or barracks/shipyards.

    In v13, looking into a barrack or shipyard units had small icons in the shape of sword and a shield, those icons came in 3 different colors, each color representing a grade. Now in v 14. all icons are in the same color, however hoovering the mouse, pops up a window with numerated value.

    In workshop we can also see next upgradable value.

    May be inside barracks and shipyard view, they should add a permeant visible number, indicating upgraded value of the unit. We won't need a different page to see all that detail.

    Despite admiring for your dedication and efforts to improve the game, as a very long Ikariam on line gamer, this is where I stand and those are my 2 cents about the game.

    All in all, in Ikariam, one may find a server that is most suitable for his playing style.

    Have fun.

    1. Is English your second language? What Mike means is he wants an easy way to say "Everyone in this alliance needs their hoplites upgraded to at least 12/12." Then, he wants the general to be able to verify that everyone has met the minimum requirement.


    2. He wanted an easier way to see all the upgrades as a premium feature. Yes, you can see it in the WS, but you have to hover each one. It'd be much better for a view that shows:


    Hoplites 3 (+15) / 3 (+15)

    Spearman 3 (+15) / 2 (+10)

    etc.

    No, English is my third language.:)

    Gotcha. Well you misinterpreted Mike's point. He's talking about just verifying minimum upgrade requirements and not using the general to force other people to do stuff.