Infinite Horizons Workshop Feedback (Low Level Players will be severely disadvantaged in combat)

100% Agree......

Quote from OutlawRacer666

If this is implemented into the game as planned, low level players will quit playing the game because they will be easily bullied.

That's right, I have a similar view of the situation. I wouldn’t want a big gap to appear between two skilled warriors after this change, just because one has a stronger account and can upgrade faster. The balance of power could quickly become uneven, which would lead to harassment.

I agree

and I would add that while before, a player with fewer soldiers could compete with players with larger armies by taking advantage of the waves and his skill, I fear that this will no longer be possible, because the difference in UPs in the workshop will nullify the skills of the smaller player

suggestion

couldn't you think of a different workshop update?

here's how :

while now i can upgrade defence and attack of individual units, one could think about accumulating generic defence and attack points, which i then decide which unit to allocate.

Example :

instead of upgrading a hoplite by 5 attack levels and 5 defence levels, I could obtain 10 generic defence/attack levels (at the same cost of 5 + 5) which I then decide to assign all to the hoplite (or to another unit).

In this way I could form an army with unique characteristics compared to the other players, with which I could practice particular game tactics

An hoplite in 12th version has 18 damage. Adding the three upgrades from the workshop and the 20% from forge we get a total damage of 25.2 (18+3+20%).

In 13th version has 360 damage. Adding for example five(5) upgrades from the workshop and the 20% from forge we get a total damage of 438 (360+5+20%).

Adding for example twenty five(25) upgrades from the workshop and the 20% from forge we get a total damage of 462(360+25+20%).

438/25,2=17,38 is the difference of the attack of an hoplite with 5 upgrades in workshop.

and 462/25.2 =18.33 is the difference of the attack of an hoplite with 25 upgrades in workshop.

Dont forget that *20 is the difference of the versions.

The 17,38(438) with the 18,33(462)is to low number for 20 upgrades difference.

If the new version has huge differences in battles it will be from effects of the *20.Not from the upgrades.

But just wait to see it first.

For numerologists.Here are all the ratio differences of each unit for damage and armour.

I took the damage/armour who has a hoplite in 12 version with the 3 upgrades plus the 5 level forge and compare from the damage/armour who will have in 13 version with X(5,10,15,20,25,30,100,1000) upgrades plus the 5 level forge.

The resulting number is the product of 13 version/12 version.I mention this because I forgot to remove the % from the cells.

Quote from OutlawRacer666

Player 1 has a top score of 50m

Player 2 has a top score of 5m

Player 1 attacks player 2.

Player 2 has not had the same amount of time and resources to invest in workshop upgrades as player 1.

Player 1 has invested millions into upgrading their units and can easily trounce the low-level player.

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Do you believe, that it will be this easy to gain a serious advantage with just a few more Upgrades / have you tested it already?

Have you seen the prices so far?

I think we saw a level 32 ATK-Upgrade for Spearman, costing ~70million Crystal.

It's probably not farfetched to assume lvl 60 Upgrades could cost billion(s) of Ressources and even then you would only have the same difference as before (under the assumption a 5m account wouldn't do 10-20 Upgrades themself, even though they would be totally affordable for them).

It would surprise me if a 50m Player and a 5m Player will be more then 20 Upgrades apart from each other (if at all) and even then the 50m Player had to invest tons of ressources and gold into this, which he could have invested instead into Units, Walls, Future-Technologies, more cities and so on.

In general the cost increase per Level seems to be insane high, the benefit of an upgrade on the other hand seem to be very low.

Obv. if someone invests millions of Ressources into upgrading then they deserve to have an advantage against their opponents (why else invest?) but imo the advantages seem to be too little to justify the costs.

So I wouldn't be too worried about the smaller Players.

Also small Players will have an easier time to grow thanks to cheaper Buildings and reduced Building-times on early levels,

Personally I'm still sceptical to all this, but it opens the path towards more Battle-Focused Updates, which I like.

Quote from Tendo

Obv. if someone invests millions of Ressources into upgrading then they deserve to have an advantage against their opponents (why else invest?) but imo the advantages seem to be too little to justify the costs.

If upgrading units/ships levels adding points to the total score, then it will be fun and fair.

Quote from JamesBond79

For numerologists.Here are all the ratio differences of each unit for damage and armour.

I took the damage/armour who has a hoplite in 12 version with the 3 upgrades plus the 5 level forge and compare from the damage/armour who will have in 13 version with X(5,10,15,20,25,30,100,1000) upgrades plus the 5 level forge.

The resulting number is the product of 13 version/12 version.I mention this because I forgot to remove the % from the cells.

Oh my god. Anyone that can read and understand this spreadsheet must know how bad this will affect combat. What a mess. Im not going to waste my time explaining my opinions, i have alot. Thank you for providing this, it has saved me countless hours on a test server. I have been trying to look for numbers

Quote from JamesBond79

For numerologists.Here are all the ratio differences of each unit for damage and armour.

I took the damage/armour who has a hoplite in 12 version with the 3 upgrades plus the 5 level forge and compare from the damage/armour who will have in 13 version with X(5,10,15,20,25,30,100,1000) upgrades plus the 5 level forge.

The resulting number is the product of 13 version/12 version.I mention this because I forgot to remove the % from the cells.

Very interesting, many thanks. Seems like relative unit values are flattened and it will take longer to destroy units because of armour potential increases. Nice nod to spartans by GF, making their purchase more desirable. I may have misinterpreted this, of course, but I think it may well be a good change, and I think the threat effects on the lower level accounts are not as bad as some feel, given the escalating upgrade costs.

But as someone who scaled back his fighting considerably since the introduction of Black Markets and consequential general banks, I'm more interested short-term in costs and effects on merchant ships and freighters. Have you by any chance done any initial researches into these?

agree Im not really sure why they're making the combat changes like this unless it's to just give people grindy work to do.

I'd much rather see a larger battlefield, and if they want to throw in some upgrades that's fine but bigger player already has an advantage because of economy and town numbers this just widens the gap before a player can become on the level combat wise on a unit to unit basis.

Honestly, it's not going to make that much of a difference. Ogame has had W/S/A for years.

The reality is, even at 10x score, he'd likely have +3/+3 upgrades on you which is relatively minor.

It's only problematic if you simply don't upgrade at all.

Quote from JamesBond79

For numerologists.Here are all the ratio differences of each unit for damage and armour.

I took the damage/armour who has a hoplite in 12 version with the 3 upgrades plus the 5 level forge and compare from the damage/armour who will have in 13 version with X(5,10,15,20,25,30,100,1000) upgrades plus the 5 level forge.

The resulting number is the product of 13 version/12 version.I mention this because I forgot to remove the % from the cells.

Thanks for the calculations

But i think the comparison between attack values and armor values is not so meaningful.

Damage a unit is able to deal is the important thing.

The maximum possible damage is attack-armor ( and still can not explain all since some of the attack value can be lost if for example you shot with a mortar upon a spearman)

So for example in version 12, an hoplite that hits an other hoplite produces a maximum damage of 25,20 - 6 = 19,20 ( and i do not remember if it is rounded at 19 or 20)

in version 13 an hoplite with +5 up that hits an other hoplite with +5 ups produce a maximum damage of

[(360 +5)*1,2 ] - [20+5+2] = 411

And the ration between the maximum damage version13/version 12 is

411/19,2 ~ 21,4.

So while the attacks and armor values of the units are *20, the real damage an hoplite can make on an other hoplite with forge

is increased more than a *20 factor. ( a 21 factor according my calculations)

This factor can only increase with the ups, since forge in not symmetrical in ups.

Considering forge active every up for land units provide +1,2 attack while only +1 defense.

Units that can benefit more form ups are units with low base attack value.

For example slingers in version 12 are not able to damage giants, but in version 13 with a +30 up in attack and forge they will

make 16 damage on a giant with a +30 up in armor and forge.

simply by spitballing changes i reckon waving is going to change. Steams to hops will get replaced with steams.. or even funnier steams to steams. Your half fire half steam rams will probably be just steam rams. Spartans are on their steroid cycles. Ballons will get popped more easier, both land and sea. Mortors you can't put in a small amount accomanied by rams, they will die instantly. If i spend time i could preach a sermon. Im not saying combat would be ruined, im simply saying it will most certainly change.. and probably not favour skill

Quote from Cheech

simply by spitballing changes i reckon waving is going to change. Steams to hops will get replaced with steams.. or even funnier steams to steams. Your half fire half steam rams will probably be just steam rams. Spartans are on their steroid cycles. Ballons will get popped more easier, both land and sea. Mortors you can't put in a small amount accomanied by rams, they will die instantly. If i spend time i could preach a sermon. Im not saying combat would be ruined, im simply saying it will most certainly change.. and probably not favour skill

If the giro can kill more balloons, we can put more mortars that died less.

This way we can fight future front lines full of giants.

The combat system will change and it will take us weeks to adapt to the most efficient version.

Quote from DIAS

Quote from Cheech

simply by spitballing changes i reckon waving is going to change. Steams to hops will get replaced with steams.. or even funnier steams to steams. Your half fire half steam rams will probably be just steam rams. Spartans are on their steroid cycles. Ballons will get popped more easier, both land and sea. Mortors you can't put in a small amount accomanied by rams, they will die instantly. If i spend time i could preach a sermon. Im not saying combat would be ruined, im simply saying it will most certainly change.. and probably not favour skill

If the giro can kill more balloons, we can put more mortars that died less.

This way we can fight future front lines full of giants.

The combat system will change and it will take us weeks to adapt to the most efficient version.

i forgot gyros also had 0 armour base so they will be just as bad as balloons. There are factors i forget about the whole time, i've not given this much thought tbh and i honestly can't be bothered to. There are still unknown factors too.. how much resource cost for upgrades will determine what levels people will average out at. My test server is 1150 total score, all i can do is speculate at this stage and lets be honest, speculation only goes so far. I could say since mortors do 3x the damage as rams they will kill 3x more frontline but that we know is not the case, unless its against steam giants. Ikariam already has its own combat rules. ah, im putting keyboard to sleep gn

It is interesting that the GF does not want to add things that the community is looking for years.

And when thes finally decide to meet the requirements of the community they offer a solution that absolutely no one demanded...

Quote from AT Barbarossa

Quote from JamesBond79

For numerologists.Here are all the ratio differences of each unit for damage and armour.

I took the damage/armour who has a hoplite in 12 version with the 3 upgrades plus the 5 level forge and compare from the damage/armour who will have in 13 version with X(5,10,15,20,25,30,100,1000) upgrades plus the 5 level forge.

The resulting number is the product of 13 version/12 version.I mention this because I forgot to remove the % from the cells.

Thanks for the calculations

But i think the comparison between attack values and armor values is not so meaningful.

Damage a unit is able to deal is the important thing.

The maximum possible damage is attack-armor ( and still can not explain all since some of the attack value can be lost if for example you shot with a mortar upon a spearman)

So for example in version 12, an hoplite that hits an other hoplite produces a maximum damage of 25,20 - 6 = 19,20 ( and i do not remember if it is rounded at 19 or 20)

in version 13 an hoplite with +5 up that hits an other hoplite with +5 ups produce a maximum damage of

[(360 +5)*1,2 ] - [20+5+2] = 411

And the ration between the maximum damage version13/version 12 is

411/19,2 ~ 21,4.

So while the attacks and armor values of the units are *20, the real damage an hoplite can make on an other hoplite with forge

is increased more than a *20 factor. ( a 21 factor according my calculations)

This factor can only increase with the ups, since forge in not symmetrical in ups.

Considering forge active every up for land units provide +1,2 attack while only +1 defense.

Units that can benefit more form ups are units with low base attack value.

For example slingers in version 12 are not able to damage giants, but in version 13 with a +30 up in attack and forge they will

make 16 damage on a giant with a +30 up in armor and forge.

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The main reason I made the comparison was to show, contrary to what many fear, that the upgrades in the new version will have a very small increase in the strength of the units compared to what many think.

That's why I mentioned "The 17,38(438) with the 18,33(462)is to low number for 20 upgrades difference."