Infinite Horizons 2

    Stop spamming the same thing over and over again.

    You could've put all of this in the same post and repeating yourself 325 times doesn't bring anything new to the discussion, either.

    pcmIK.jpg

    Am Anfang wurde das Universum erschaffen.

    Das machte viele Leute sehr wütend und wurde allenthalben als Schritt in die falsche Richtung angesehen.

    Quote from badidol

    Stop spamming the same thing over and over again.

    You could've put all of this in the same post and repeating yourself 325 times doesn't bring anything new to the discussion, either.

    Start doing your job then. Your killing this game.

    Quote from The crow

    Funny how fast they close these posts when you expose them.


    [mod='badidol']Warned for repeated spam and flame, continuing despite being warned.[/mod]

    You aren't exposing anything though.


    You need to participate in the new system and upgrade your units, knowing that, yes, large accounts can have an advantage, but they have to pay 10x as much as you did for a +3/+3 upgrade advantage and that upgrades have diminishing returns (as in the % of power increase diminishes as more and more upgrades are applied).

    Fact “When raiding a target, the total loading time increases as both the number of ships and the capacity of each trade ship increase.”


    I assume the exact relationship between the increase in loading capacity and loading time is unknown; however, if anyone has information regarding this, please kindly inform me.


    I asked the AI to estimate the formula based on the data points where a capacity of 500 corresponds to 33 minutes loading time, and a capacity of 700 corresponds to 46 minutes.


    Based on this, when the trade ship capacity reaches around 1520 per ship capacity, the marginal return—that is, the amount of resources that can be pillaged within 24 hours—begins to decrease.


    I don’t believe this was the intended outcome when they removed the loading time limit...


    Therefore, please reconsider the mechanics related to loading time to improve pillaging efficiency. Some suggestions include:

    • Implementing a maximum loading time limit;

    • Adjusting the rate at which loading time increases with ship capacity;

    • Exploring research or upgrades that could reduce loading time during pillaging;

    • Introducing additional balancing factors to prevent diminishing returns as capacity grows.




    I think GF miss a opportunity to create 2 improvements for trading ships:

    - increase capacity :thumbup:

    - increase loading time:thumbdown:


    Since all units/ships have 2 improvements (offense/defense) trading ships could have 2 improvements.

    - increase loading time could give +1 goods/min/ship in the load capacity when pillage.

    lvl. 1 - +1 -> 16 goods/min/ship -> 31 min 15 s

    lvl. 2 - +2 -> 17 goods/min/ship -> 29 min 40 s

    lvl. ...


    this way we could improve ships capacity and the loading time when pillage didn't increase.

    Quote from TheGodfather

    I assume the exact relationship between the increase in loading capacity and loading time is unknown; however, if anyone has information regarding this, please kindly inform me.

    It's even in the ingame-help



    Simply put, before we had constant 500 capacity for trading ships, which meant the loading time was 500/15 = 33min 20sec while pillaging.

    The loading speed has not changed, but the capacity has, each +20 capacity means 20/15= 1min 20sec overall more loading time.


    This also means the amount of ressources you pillage (mathematically) never decreases because of upgrades, the benefit might converge against 0 but it can never be negative, since the loading-speed remains constant.

    No, the marginal utility doesn't decrease because you're looking more. Once you hit 1520 per ship, you're still getting more loot over time because you're getting over 3x the loot on one unit of travel time.


    Did you forgot to consider the travel time?

    Okay, with this info given things are more clear now :

    *Each of your merchant ships can load 15 resources per minute


    So, it never goes negative, but it experiences diminishing returns... which is also not so good :)

    -->There’s definitely room for improvement, such as making this process linear instead of experiencing diminishing returns...







    Except no one is pillaging 24/7 and for scenarios with more realistic travel time, for example, 60+ minutes, the extra storage space does increase the amount of res per day.


    Your chart is intentionally misleading as if you're always pillaging someone 0 to 1 islands away.


    Do multiple charts with adjustable travel time and you'll see the benefit much more clearly, but you're likely trying to skew the numbers for faster loading time.

    If the target is 2h round trip away, for each additional 8k in capacity (20*400), you can see how much more total res you can loot per day. Yes, there are diminishing returns, but it's still a net positive. Also, there's a reason to cross compare adding another ship versus adding more capacity to your existing ships.



    Cargo Ships 400 Capacity Loading Time (Minutes) Round Trip Trips Per Day Total Res Per Day
    Travel Time 240 500 33.33 273.33 5.27 1,053,659
    Minutes Per Day 1440 520 34.67 274.67 5.24 1,090,485
    540 36.00 276.00 5.22 1,126,957
    560 37.33 277.33 5.19 1,163,077
    580 38.67 278.67 5.17 1,198,852
    600 40.00 280.00 5.14 1,234,286
    620 41.33 281.33 5.12 1,269,384
    640 42.67 282.67 5.09 1,304,151
    660 44.00 284.00 5.07 1,338,592
    680 45.33 285.33 5.05 1,372,710
    700 46.67 286.67 5.02 1,406,512
    720 48.00 288.00 5.00 1,440,000
    740 49.33 289.33 4.98 1,473,180
    760 50.67 290.67 4.95 1,506,055
    780 52.00 292.00 4.93 1,538,630
    800 53.33 293.33 4.91 1,570,909
    820 54.67 294.67 4.89 1,602,896
    840 56.00 296.00 4.86 1,634,595
    860 57.33 297.33 4.84 1,666,009
    880 58.67 298.67 4.82 1,697,143
    900 60.00 300.00 4.80 1,728,000
    920 61.33 301.33 4.78 1,758,584
    940 62.67 302.67 4.76 1,788,899
    960 64.00 304.00 4.74 1,818,947
    980 65.33 305.33 4.72 1,848,734
    1000 66.67 306.67 4.70 1,878,261
    1020 68.00 308.00 4.68 1,907,532
    1040 69.33 309.33 4.66 1,936,552
    1060 70.67 310.67 4.64 1,965,322
    1080 72.00 312.00 4.62 1,993,846
    1100 73.33 313.33 4.60 2,022,128
    1120 74.67 314.67 4.58 2,050,169
    1140 76.00 316.00 4.56 2,077,975
    1160 77.33 317.33 4.54 2,105,546
    1180 78.67 318.67 4.52 2,132,887
    1200 80.00 320.00 4.50 2,160,000
    1220 81.33 321.33 4.48 2,186,888
    1240 82.67 322.67 4.46 2,213,554
    1260 84.00 324.00 4.44 2,240,000
    1280 85.33 325.33 4.43 2,266,230
    1300 86.67 326.67 4.41 2,292,245
    1320 88.00 328.00 4.39 2,318,049
    1340 89.33 329.33 4.37 2,343,644
    1360 90.67 330.67 4.35 2,369,032
    1380 92.00 332.00 4.34 2,394,217
    1400 93.33 333.33 4.32 2,419,200
    1420 94.67 334.67 4.30 2,443,984
    1440 96.00 336.00 4.29 2,468,571
    1460 97.33 337.33 4.27 2,492,964
    1480 98.67 338.67 4.25 2,517,165
    1500 100.00 340.00 4.24 2,541,176
    1520 101.33 341.33 4.22 2,565,000
    1540 102.67 342.67 4.20 2,588,638
    1560 104.00 344.00 4.19 2,612,093
    1580 105.33 345.33 4.17 2,635,367
    1600 106.67 346.67 4.15 2,658,462
    1620 108.00 348.00 4.14 2,681,379
    1640 109.33 349.33 4.12 2,704,122
    1660 110.67 350.67 4.11 2,726,692
    1680 112.00 352.00 4.09 2,749,091
    1700 113.33 353.33 4.08 2,771,321
    1720 114.67 354.67 4.06 2,793,383
    1740 116.00 356.00 4.04 2,815,281
    1760 117.33 357.33 4.03 2,837,015
    1780 118.67 358.67 4.01 2,858,587
    1800 120.00 360.00 4.00 2,880,000
    1820 121.33 361.33 3.99 2,901,255
    1840 122.67 362.67 3.97 2,922,353
    1860 124.00 364.00 3.96 2,943,297
    1880 125.33 365.33 3.94 2,964,088
    1900 126.67 366.67 3.93 2,984,727
    1920 128.00 368.00 3.91 3,005,217
    1940 129.33 369.33 3.90 3,025,560
    1960 130.67 370.67 3.88 3,045,755
    1980 132.00 372.00 3.87 3,065,806
    2000 133.33 373.33 3.86 3,085,714

    For a pretty graph:



    It's honestly exhausting to have this discussion over and over.


    TL;DR: Upgrading your ships always gets you more res over a specific unit of time and there are no downsides. The longer the travel time, the greater the benefit.


    You can make a copy of the Google Drive spreadsheet and modify it as you see accordingly: https://docs.google.com/spread…FSQJ6YJk/edit?usp=sharing

    Edited 2 times, last by User12996 ().

    who think can make tradingships improvement to 2000 goods?? (lvl. 75?!?!)



    Hera a graphic with 10 distances and pillage capacity with 284 trading ships.

    Edited once, last by DIAS ().

    Also, part of the reason for diminishing returns is adding 20 capacity to 500 is a 4% increase but adding 20 capacity to 1500 is a 1.3% increase. The only way to avoid diminishing returns would be for every upgrade to increase capacity by 1.04^level of upgrade. This would make a level 11 upgrade give 40 extra capacity instead of 20.


    DIAS I've no idea when buying additional ships over take upgrades or vice versa, but I'm sure that'd be interesting to all of us. Going to 75 upgrades was simply to project a value far into the future.

    Quote from DIAS

    who think can make tradingships improvement to 2000 goods?? (lvl. 75?!?!)

    I think the limit is 940 units per boat obtained at level 50 of the workshop, which is the maximum level available so far. For me, level 50 will only release 1 improvement like the other levels.

    I made an estimate of the cost to reach 940 units per boat, it would be 1 086 061 872 gold and 441 867 801 crystal (considering level 50 of the crystal reduction building).

    I'm progressing to 780 units per boat now, the other costs are not 100% correct.

    The image below shows the values already known.

    https://forum.ikariam.gameforg…asted-from-clipboard-png/


    Quote from User12996

    DIAS I've no idea when buying additional ships over take upgrades or vice versa, but I'm sure that'd be interesting to all of us. Going to 75 upgrades was simply to project a value far into the future.

    This is easy to calculate. First, you will need to find out the equivalence of the improvements to your boats. The formula is as follows: number of boats*20/500. Then you will need to give a value in gold for the crystal, to be able to compare the improvement of the boats where gold and crystal are spent with the purchase of new boats. I posted a link to the information on the costs of the improvements above, and a link to the cost of the boats below.


    link to boat prices (post#6) INFORMAÇÕES SOBRE BARCOS FENÍCIOS [23]


    I will use my case as an example.

    I have 475 boats, each improvement is equivalent to 19 boats (475*20/500=19). I have already bought 300 boats, so to buy the next 19 boats the cost will be 2 478 901 155 gold. To make the improvement to 780 units per boat the cost was 33 869 874 gold and 13 783 195 crystal, if I consider the value of 1 crystal equivalent to 50 gold the cost would be 723 029 624 gold. We conclude that it is cheaper to make the improvement than to buy.

    It's easy to calculate on an individual upgrade level, but without the cost of all the upgrades, you can't make a calculator that tells you, for example, upgrade boats until upgrade X, then buy Y ships, then do upgrade X+1.


    Without that upgrade cost table, you can't make a calculator that determines when you should stop upgrading, and can only analyze it one upgrade at a time.


    If we had a full cost table of upgrades as we already do with ships, then you can simply make a formula that's effectively, if you have X number of ships, you want to upgrade to Y number of upgrades before you buy ships.

    Also, here's the cost of a level 89 workshop so it goes higher than 50. They changed the help so it scales to the level of your building. I currently have a level 43 workshop on the test server:

    89 64.50M 64.87M 9D 4h

    For example, you can currently use the following formula to compute the cost of the next ship: {\displaystyle {S_{n}=3\times \lbrack 4,500\times 1.03^{n}-4,475\rbrack }}


    So the first ship is 480 and the 301st ship is 98,691,404 and you can use a formula to calculate it.


    As far as I know, there's currently no known formula to calculate the upgrade cost of the trading ships. If you could, then you'd input your current number of ships, your current upgrade level, the optician level where your workshop is located, the equivalent gold cost of crystal and it'd do the following:


    We'll assume that the current person has 300 ships purchased and 5 upgrades, so they hold 600 each.


    Any upgrade would provide 6k space, so you'd compute the equivalent cost of that in ships, which is 10. You'd then sum the gold costs for ships 301 to 310 and compare that against the equivalent gold cost of the next upgrade. Whichever is cheaper would be the recommended path.


    More realistically, you'd just change the upgrade level from 5 to 6, and then it'd do the same computation again, and recommend either the next X ships or upgrade 6.