Display MoreOh yeah man - VMs - completely forgot about that lol 🤦🏻♂️
Well that idea went to trash can pretty quickly xD
That would also render tokens useless for this use case...
Welp - we're back to square one - multis really is the best solution to at least level the playing field for everyone...
I don't think IT is capable to resolve this problem. It has already been discussed here. That's why I'm coming up with other barriers....
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Display MoreQuote from KilljoyWith or without ambrosia?
Without. I have no idea how ambrosia would even be involved in holding a big military.
step 1: build up tons of gold
step 2: buy military at minimum prices from friends with the black market
step 3: go hit someone with it
step 4: sell military back or put account in vmode
It's not that hard.
And how players being forced to pay ambrosia tax up to twice a month + cooldown time whether they buy or sell troops a bad thing? I mean, besides the 48 hour rule after v-mode, cheaters would have huge upkeep costs. If they follow step 2, they would need to buy up to 5k troops, for example. In case he wants to buy 10k troops, he'd need to pay ambrosia tax again, and that would lead them to wait the cooldown time to end. Therefore, they wouldn't be able to follow step 4.
My idea here is to remove the black market without ACTUALLY removing it. We all agree it sucks, but people still like it.
For the last time, using the black market does not make you a cheater. Stop calling everyone who uses the black market a cheater. Good grief.
Display MoreDisplay MoreDisplay MoreBro, there are older servers where people can actually maintain million generals. So you are suggesting that the entire game mechanic should change because of something that isn't a part of the problem - but rather a solution to the problem. The multis will exist no mater what the rules are. If someone is smart enough with VPNs, or proxys and some other methods that can easily be set up/used by someone who knows a bit more about IT infrastructure etc - he will have multis within the rule scope no matter what. So if you are not that competent in the field of IT - you have an option to create multis of your own to counter that. That is precisely why they allowed multis to attack the same target as long as there is no direct contact. This is a huge deal if you know how to use it. But based on what you are saying, it would seem as if you are not that proficient in the art of war. There are numerous tactics that arise from just that simple rule - making it a powerful tool to fight against stronger opponents (be it because of sheer points, general banks or huge money investment). If you are good enough - and smart enough - you can wage war on several fronts at the same time - and that is just one scenario. Waving, specialized attacks, draining - you name it. The player base is no longer big enough to fill in the entire map as it used to be 10+ years ago either way, so this adds another level of challenges while keeping your playing field within the short range of travel. The only down side is that new players might be overwhelmed by it, and that is why you should step in and teach them how the things work and help them discover more complex ways of playing the game. You don't need to bring in friends necessarily, you can make new friends in the game, so you can cooperate even further.
Yeah, but that's the problem: no one's happy now. This is not the first time this topic is brought up. After talking to Draxo and Badidol, only coding seems to fix the problem. How can someone hack cooldown time, for example? You can have lots of alts and huge military score, you can't hack it. You need to wait. That's why I said that they wouldn't have to charge tax all the time. After two or three times, cooldown time can be longer for those who have ambrosia. If you want to have alts and join your friends, go ahead.
Changing the whole mechanic has already been mentioned, and it's not possible. The IT part has also been mentioned, and it's hard to find the cheaters. What I'm trying to say is that cheaters can get stuff that legit players can't. There's always a way to make their lives harder through coding, even if it doesn't completely eliminate them.
If we take into account all the things players have to do to have a chance to fight against the cheaters, we'll see this is nonsense.
Yeah but if you have a good alliance, and you lost a lot of generals, but need to get back to fighting ASAP, you are also penalized if you start buying generals from multiple persons / cities... All those things affect regular players more, and the game mechanics become more and more restricted... In that case why would you even need black market... The point of that building is the need in emergency, not when you have time to build...
The only thing that would solve everything would be something like KYC. But that is something that almost nobody would do...
That's what I'm talking about. And that's my intention. Did you remember when our alliances used to buy lots of resources at the trading post to train troops? Upkeep cost was a barrier against huge military scores. Even if you had the guts to do such thing, you wouldn't last long on the battlefield.
Black market is indeed for emergencies, but people are treating it as a way to get troops fast. That's why you should only use it once or twice. Alliances are fighting endless wars while other people are living on the corners of the server. If rules were equal to almost everybody, we'd all have a chance to fight too. Being part of an alliance would make so much sense, and that's what I miss the most.
But you've chosen to live in exile in a tiny alliance because you don't want to play with builders. That's stated clearly on your alliance page.
An alliance where everyone is a fighter is an alliance that's unsustainable because no one can trade or supply.
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Display MoreDisplay MoreBro, there are older servers where people can actually maintain million generals. So you are suggesting that the entire game mechanic should change because of something that isn't a part of the problem - but rather a solution to the problem. The multis will exist no mater what the rules are. If someone is smart enough with VPNs, or proxys and some other methods that can easily be set up/used by someone who knows a bit more about IT infrastructure etc - he will have multis within the rule scope no matter what. So if you are not that competent in the field of IT - you have an option to create multis of your own to counter that. That is precisely why they allowed multis to attack the same target as long as there is no direct contact. This is a huge deal if you know how to use it. But based on what you are saying, it would seem as if you are not that proficient in the art of war. There are numerous tactics that arise from just that simple rule - making it a powerful tool to fight against stronger opponents (be it because of sheer points, general banks or huge money investment). If you are good enough - and smart enough - you can wage war on several fronts at the same time - and that is just one scenario. Waving, specialized attacks, draining - you name it. The player base is no longer big enough to fill in the entire map as it used to be 10+ years ago either way, so this adds another level of challenges while keeping your playing field within the short range of travel. The only down side is that new players might be overwhelmed by it, and that is why you should step in and teach them how the things work and help them discover more complex ways of playing the game. You don't need to bring in friends necessarily, you can make new friends in the game, so you can cooperate even further.
Yeah, but that's the problem: no one's happy now. This is not the first time this topic is brought up. After talking to Draxo and Badidol, only coding seems to fix the problem. How can someone hack cooldown time, for example? You can have lots of alts and huge military score, you can't hack it. You need to wait. That's why I said that they wouldn't have to charge tax all the time. After two or three times, cooldown time can be longer for those who have ambrosia. If you want to have alts and join your friends, go ahead.
Changing the whole mechanic has already been mentioned, and it's not possible. The IT part has also been mentioned, and it's hard to find the cheaters. What I'm trying to say is that cheaters can get stuff that legit players can't. There's always a way to make their lives harder through coding, even if it doesn't completely eliminate them.
If we take into account all the things players have to do to have a chance to fight against the cheaters, we'll see this is nonsense.
I'll say it again. The majority of the unhappiness is because of the merge and everything you're describing is a symptom of the merge.
Cheaters "hack" the cooldown problem by being the ones with the most accounts so they can run the most general banks and it's, at most, an inconvenience to them.
The limit is 11. You can also have 11 accounts. Like you said, that's called playing optimally.
If you are using 11 accounts at the same time, you are not cheating. You are playing by the rules. I get it; you don't like the rules, but that does not mean people are cheating by playing multiple accounts with the ip sharing treaty.
The ONLY people cheating are people using illegal multis. I do not understand why this is so hard for you to understand. I'm starting to believe you're being deliberately obtuse or intentionally trolling.
Anyone who doesn't play Killjoy's way is cheating. He declared it.
The most hilarious thing about this is that Killjoy doesn't know history.
LOST originally tried to get a server with 1 account per IP and it also got denied in a similar fashion by Draxo and badidol.
Display MoreDisplay MoreDisplay MoreQuote from KilljoyWith or without ambrosia?
Without. I have no idea how ambrosia would even be involved in holding a big military.
step 1: build up tons of gold
step 2: buy military at minimum prices from friends with the black market
step 3: go hit someone with it
step 4: sell military back or put account in vmode
It's not that hard.
And how players being forced to pay ambrosia tax up to twice a month + cooldown time whether they buy or sell troops a bad thing? I mean, besides the 48 hour rule after v-mode, cheaters would have huge upkeep costs. If they follow step 2, they would need to buy up to 5k troops, for example. In case he wants to buy 10k troops, he'd need to pay ambrosia tax again, and that would lead them to wait the cooldown time to end. Therefore, they wouldn't be able to follow step 4.
My idea here is to remove the black market without ACTUALLY removing it. We all agree it sucks, but people still like it.
For the last time, using the black market does not make you a cheater. Stop calling everyone who uses the black market a cheater. Good grief.
Not everybody who uses the black market is a cheater, but every cheater uses the black market. Capeesh?
Ok, lets stick to the topic, we all agree a 24 or 48 ban after coming out of v.mode would help right?
I know it would or it would create chaos as everyone bought as much as they could off the gen bank because if you had to sit 48 hours with a 22 million gen score the loss of gold would be brutal and the last thing you would want to wait for is someone from 12 hours away to make a "buy".it would bring a whole new strategy to the game.
3 top gen banks on my server are at 22 million. The top 50 go to 1.8 million.
This would be a start to making the game a bit more fair.
I played mostly with no gen bank since this game came out.
That's why I can build 15,6000 hops every 24 hours.
But I fight guys that just buy their troops.
Quote from KilljoyBlack market is indeed for emergencies, but people are treating it as a way to get troops fast.
The black market is for getting troops/ships quickly rather than having to build them oneself. That IS its purpose.
Quote from The crowOk, lets stick to the topic, we all agree a 24 or 48 ban after coming out of v.mode would help right?
I do not agree with this. At all. This would penalize anyone and everyone just trying to play the game. If someone comes out of vmode and needs to buy something quickly to go fight an opponent, they're screwed for 24-48 hours. (Note: players who just bypass this by suddenly "acquiring" a new account would still be able to get around it by playing the new account for a few days.) The only thing that would solve the problems of people using the black market would be to remove it from the game. But, as Gameforge has demonstrated over the years, this is never going to happen.
So, the best way to deal with it is to learn to play the game with it in existence, not wish away the advantages it provides. If you want to handicap yourself by pretending it's not there, that's your choice. But blaming others for your self-imposed limitations won't solve your problems.
Display MoreQuote from KilljoyBlack market is indeed for emergencies, but people are treating it as a way to get troops fast.
The black market is for getting troops/ships quickly rather than having to build them oneself. That IS its purpose.
Quote from The crowOk, lets stick to the topic, we all agree a 24 or 48 ban after coming out of v.mode would help right?
I do not agree with this. At all. This would penalize anyone and everyone just trying to play the game. If someone comes out of vmode and needs to buy something quickly to go fight an opponent, they're screwed for 24-48 hours. (Note: players who just bypass this by suddenly "acquiring" a new account would still be able to get around it by playing the new account for a few days.) The only thing that would solve the problems of people using the black market would be to remove it from the game. But, as Gameforge has demonstrated over the years, this is never going to happen.
So, the best way to deal with it is to learn to play the game with it in existence, not wish away the advantages it provides. If you want to handicap yourself by pretending it's not there, that's your choice. But blaming others for your self-imposed limitations won't solve your problems.
Well bud when a guy with a 22 million gen score comes out of v.mode it is only for one thing. They dont come out of v.mode to fight anyone so maybe you dont understand how banks work. Keep the black market, just initiate a 48 hour ban on selling troops from an account fresh out of v.mode and problem solved.
Gen and gold banks only come out of v.mode for one reason.
Display MoreQuote from KilljoyBlack market is indeed for emergencies, but people are treating it as a way to get troops fast.
The black market is for getting troops/ships quickly rather than having to build them oneself. That IS its purpose.
Quote from The crowOk, lets stick to the topic, we all agree a 24 or 48 ban after coming out of v.mode would help right?
I do not agree with this. At all. This would penalize anyone and everyone just trying to play the game. If someone comes out of vmode and needs to buy something quickly to go fight an opponent, they're screwed for 24-48 hours. (Note: players who just bypass this by suddenly "acquiring" a new account would still be able to get around it by playing the new account for a few days.) The only thing that would solve the problems of people using the black market would be to remove it from the game. But, as Gameforge has demonstrated over the years, this is never going to happen.
So, the best way to deal with it is to learn to play the game with it in existence, not wish away the advantages it provides. If you want to handicap yourself by pretending it's not there, that's your choice. But blaming others for your self-imposed limitations won't solve your problems.
I dont even know what to say. This person clearly has no idea on what a gen bank is. Like someone is going to come out with 22 million gen score and 20 million gold upkeep an hour to go pillage someone.
Simply divide the military into more military banks with less upkeep each?????????? All you get then is an annoying cooldown!
Counter suggestion: In order to fix your problem with general banks, you might aswell make it an official function of alliances. Players get to donate and withdraw generals. This would however just dumb the game down more.
24-48 hr restriction for black market after VM would change the dynamics - but not solve the issue.
The underlying problem is not 11 multis you can have with IP treaty. The problem is that some players have multis WITHOUT IP sharing treaty.
If you put in the restriction - there are still ways to bypass this. If I can have 10 accounts without IP sharing treaty - I can still distribute large sums of generals. It would change the dynamics making generals more expensive and having to maintain those accounts - but in that case I am willing to bet that those who are in the business would soon organize in alliances that nobody could fight... and it would open the door for blackmail and "paying the freedom tax" etc - killing the game entirely.
The only solid solution is to find a way to restrict multis without IP sharing treaty, not to put in restrictions for game mechanics that serve their own purposes. And there is no way to do this efficiently other than binding the account to the identity (which can STILL be bypassed - and people would bypass it if you have monetary gain from it - family, friends etc).
So removing the black market from the game might actually work - but there are legit players that rely on that building. I don't personally - it would make no difference for me - but there are others that would dread this decision... AAAAND instead of buying the generals - people would then buy the services of someone who has a lot of generals. It wouldn't solve the underlying issue, just change the dynamics.
That is why having multis is the only "fair" way of dealing with this. The same way you don't like multis, others would hate the removal of black market...
There will always be cheaters, whatever you do...
Also if you put restrictions on number of generals you can own - the smaller or bigger players would suffer the most... If it's based on % of your current score - smaller players suffer. If it's based on the ceiling - bigger players suffer. If the need is great, and you are expecting some big fights - you can actually maintain a huge general score for that short period. If you have a ceiling for max general score - big alliances will ALWAYS have a HUGE advantage over everyone. And telling people to simply find bigger alliances is the worst possible outcome out of all suggestions... There are small alliances that can actually deal with top alliances easily - well organized and active players that know how to fight. Restricting them would kill the game for fighters, and you'd be left with only the builders...
Display MoreDisplay MoreDisplay MoreDisplay MoreQuote from KilljoyWith or without ambrosia?
Without. I have no idea how ambrosia would even be involved in holding a big military.
step 1: build up tons of gold
step 2: buy military at minimum prices from friends with the black market
step 3: go hit someone with it
step 4: sell military back or put account in vmode
It's not that hard.
And how players being forced to pay ambrosia tax up to twice a month + cooldown time whether they buy or sell troops a bad thing? I mean, besides the 48 hour rule after v-mode, cheaters would have huge upkeep costs. If they follow step 2, they would need to buy up to 5k troops, for example. In case he wants to buy 10k troops, he'd need to pay ambrosia tax again, and that would lead them to wait the cooldown time to end. Therefore, they wouldn't be able to follow step 4.
My idea here is to remove the black market without ACTUALLY removing it. We all agree it sucks, but people still like it.
For the last time, using the black market does not make you a cheater. Stop calling everyone who uses the black market a cheater. Good grief.
Not everybody who uses the black market is a cheater, but every cheater uses the black market. Capeesh?
That's hardly true and I don't know why you always want to make such broad generalizations.
1. What about an idea where there would be a cap on the number of generals you could keep when going into vacation mode? For example, a maximum of 50k generals (just a sample number, or it could be based on total score, upkeep capacity, etc.). Anything above that would be automatically disbanded upon entering vacation mode.
This would single-handedly prevent what we see now, where the top 50 generals' scores are mostly general banks. For the average player, it wouldn’t have much of an impact.
Of course, there could be some niche cases where a regular player gets the short end of the stick and is forced to disband some troops. However, more often than not, this wouldn’t be an issue.
2. Another idea would be to make vacation mode apply to the entire player lobby—all 11 accounts—so you couldn’t send only your alt accounts into vacation mode. This actually makes sense since, if you need to use vacation mode due to personal real-life reasons, you likely can’t manage any of your accounts anyway.
Again, you're seeing this "issue" from the point of view of a "builder", who logs in every now and then to do some upgrades. Example Killjoy. That was btw the only point in showing who he is and how he got to create this thread, to rant about military banks and alts.
The active playerbase, that most likely also spends the most ambrosia are "fighters". Your suggestions are just restricting the game more.
What it seems to me, is that you guys do not understand a simple fact about Ikariam:
Its called fighters and suppliers, not fighters and builders. We all build. Thats what it has always been like. The game is all about coordinating and cooperating with other players.
1. I don't know how I feel about this. It depends on how the caps are calculated, but this just leads to more general banks.
2. This just means instead of having 1 GF account, now I have 11.
Personally, I put accounts in vacation mode for a variety of different reasons. Maybe I don't want to deal with that account. Maybe I'm fine with the smaller accounts being active, etc. Maybe my alliance is watching my towns in case of an emergency.
I certainly don't feel like it should be an all or nothing thing. While I rarely go in vacation mode, it's usually been asynchronous. As in I'm tired of dealing with something on X server, might as well vmode or GY.
1. What about an idea where there would be a cap on the number of generals you could keep when going into vacation mode? For example, a maximum of 50k generals (just a sample number, or it could be based on total score, upkeep capacity, etc.). Anything above that would be automatically disbanded upon entering vacation mode.
This would single-handedly prevent what we see now, where the top 50 generals' scores are mostly general banks. For the average player, it wouldn’t have much of an impact.
Of course, there could be some niche cases where a regular player gets the short end of the stick and is forced to disband some troops. However, more often than not, this wouldn’t be an issue.
2. Another idea would be to make vacation mode apply to the entire player lobby—all 11 accounts—so you couldn’t send only your alt accounts into vacation mode. This actually makes sense since, if you need to use vacation mode due to personal real-life reasons, you likely can’t manage any of your accounts anyway.
1. There are older servers where it is common to have 100k generals. So it would have to be world specific (and it would be a living hell to get to a reasonable consensus on where to put the mark)…
2. You can't have multiple accounts in the same lobby for the same world. But even if you impose VM on all the connected accounts - those people who are making the general banks don't share IP treaties - so it wouldn't fix the fundamental problem...
And to be quite honest - those people who do deal with such things - they are still putting in some work. I'm not justifying the practice - I'm just saying that there is some sort of balance between regular players and those who are making general banks in the current state of things. If you really look at it from the "fairness" perspective - the existence of ambro and items from the shop as they are is by itself unfair. To make comparison - in League of Legends you can spend your money on skins - cosmetic part of the game. It doesn't give you competitive edge - only aesthetic. In Ikariam you can buy resources, boost production, move cities, instant cooldown reduction, faster ships etc etc - all those things give you competitive edge. Not to mention spartans that are arguably stronger units not available to players that don't spend money... And in the same comparison - in League you also have services outside the game rules - booster accounts, scripts etc.
So the best solution is not to restrict but rather give tools to regular players that will even out the playing field.
Display More1. What about an idea where there would be a cap on the number of generals you could keep when going into vacation mode? For example, a maximum of 50k generals (just a sample number, or it could be based on total score, upkeep capacity, etc.). Anything above that would be automatically disbanded upon entering vacation mode.
This would single-handedly prevent what we see now, where the top 50 generals' scores are mostly general banks. For the average player, it wouldn’t have much of an impact.
Of course, there could be some niche cases where a regular player gets the short end of the stick and is forced to disband some troops. However, more often than not, this wouldn’t be an issue.
2. Another idea would be to make vacation mode apply to the entire player lobby—all 11 accounts—so you couldn’t send only your alt accounts into vacation mode. This actually makes sense since, if you need to use vacation mode due to personal real-life reasons, you likely can’t manage any of your accounts anyway.
1. There are older servers where it is common to have 100k generals. So it would have to be world specific (and it would be a living hell to get to a reasonable consensus on where to put the mark)…
2. You can't have multiple accounts in the same lobby for the same world. But even if you impose VM on all the connected accounts - those people who are making the general banks don't share IP treaties - so it wouldn't fix the fundamental problem...
And to be quite honest - those people who do deal with such things - they are still putting in some work. I'm not justifying the practice - I'm just saying that there is some sort of balance between regular players and those who are making general banks in the current state of things. If you really look at it from the "fairness" perspective - the existence of ambro and items from the shop as they are is by itself unfair. To make comparison - in League of Legends you can spend your money on skins - cosmetic part of the game. It doesn't give you competitive edge - only aesthetic. In Ikariam you can buy resources, boost production, move cities, instant cooldown reduction, faster ships etc etc - all those things give you competitive edge. Not to mention spartans that are arguably stronger units not available to players that don't spend money... And in the same comparison - in League you also have services outside the game rules - booster accounts, scripts etc.
So the best solution is not to restrict but rather give tools to regular players that will even out the playing field.
2. You can. Either you GY an existing account or do an account transfer from another account.
How I did it originally was I created an account and GY'd it to my main. If you already have multiple accounts, you can use the gift code to consolidate your accounts to 1 account.
Just go to my accounts in the lobby, generate gift code, then pick the account you want to move over. It's very quick.
Oh - that is something I haven't thought about. Thanks for the info.
Either way - those who are "the real problem" don't bother with these methods. They have multiple accounts that are treated as separate people. So 1 person can attack you from 10 different accounts at the same time and it would still look to GF as if it's 10 different accounts... This is precisely the mechanism on which the general banks are based on. Multiple accounts funneling units to 1 account that was made and prepared to be a holder of all those units.
Display MoreQuote from KilljoyBlack market is indeed for emergencies, but people are treating it as a way to get troops fast.
The black market is for getting troops/ships quickly rather than having to build them oneself. That IS its purpose.
Quote from The crowOk, lets stick to the topic, we all agree a 24 or 48 ban after coming out of v.mode would help right?
I do not agree with this. At all. This would penalize anyone and everyone just trying to play the game. If someone comes out of vmode and needs to buy something quickly to go fight an opponent, they're screwed for 24-48 hours. (Note: players who just bypass this by suddenly "acquiring" a new account would still be able to get around it by playing the new account for a few days.) The only thing that would solve the problems of people using the black market would be to remove it from the game. But, as Gameforge has demonstrated over the years, this is never going to happen.
So, the best way to deal with it is to learn to play the game with it in existence, not wish away the advantages it provides. If you want to handicap yourself by pretending it's not there, that's your choice. But blaming others for your self-imposed limitations won't solve your problems.
No one comes out of v.mode to just start attacking someone and they have to wait for their forge anyways.
Oh - that is something I haven't thought about. Thanks for the info.
Either way - those who are "the real problem" don't bother with these methods. They have multiple accounts that are treated as separate people. So 1 person can attack you from 10 different accounts at the same time and it would still look to GF as if it's 10 different accounts... This is precisely the mechanism on which the general banks are based on. Multiple accounts funneling units to 1 account that was made and prepared to be a holder of all those units.
You cant attack one guy with 10 accounts at once. IP share will not let you.
